Wednesday, June 25, 2014
Space Lions
The 20th century philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein famously and opaquely said, "if a lion could speak, we could not understand him." What happens if we replace "lion" with "extra-terrestrial?" No, not that one. Read this post on Joshua Rothman's new blog. For your local noon next Wednesday 2 July, please evaluate the claims made about language as a way of knowing. Do you agree? What are the implications? Is there another way of knowing via which we may better be able to communicate with such potentially disparate beings?
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Joshua Rothman pushes the ideas that communicating with an extra-terrestrial is more complicated than it seems. Not only mathematicians and astrologists are responsible for carrying this out, but people like archaeologists and anthropologists and anyone else who studies civilizations. I agree with Rothman’s claim because in truth, communication is already complex to carry out. Among humans alone, there are so many miscommunications on a day to day basis. There are many organisms on this earth that we do not fully understand despite all the research that we do and our attempts to interact with them. It makes sense that communicating with extraterrestrials will be even more complex than communicating with organisms on our planet. As for all organisms living on Earth, we share a common ground. We know of the same general environment, the same elements in the air, so it would be much easier to find a common language and communicate using it. On the other hand Extraterrestrials come from a totally different place. Physically, they might not look like any of thing we know of because they would not share any common ancestors. On top of this, their world might be a totally different place than Earth. As a result, we might not have much in common with these species.
ReplyDeleteBasically, there is a huge amount of information that is unknown about this extra terrestrial creature that we want to communicate with. We do not know what it is, what it is like, what message we want to send it, and it is because of this that we do not know how to communicate with it.
In opposition to the belief of Rothman, who says “There is no obvious starting point, but there are some approaches that are easier than others—for example, mathematics...Maybe mathematics as a whole isn’t universal, but if we can start with something fundamental, we can build up to communicating, step by step, our way of bringing order into the universe”, I think that it is almost impossible to find a common language with extraterrestrials because of its complexity. I believe that not even mathematics can be relied on when trying to communicate with an extraterrestrial because of the unknown about this extraterrestrial is too great, and the unknown about the universe is too great. Our mathematics might be different from the mathematics of another world, or it might be the same. It would be much easier to know what extraterrestrial we are dealing with, so we could study them and then see what method would be the best to communicate with them.
Correction:
DeleteFirst paragraph- " mathematicians and astronomers "
ReplyDeleteInterestingly enough, each time I read a prompt post to derive a basis for my analysis, I'm exposed to events that I did not know was taking place. I had no idea that scientist and philosophers were working hard to establish a common bases of communication between humans and extraterrestrial beings.
Through evaluation and reading the issues that arose from not having a common language that could be translated between human and extra terrestrials, I was able to realize the value of language as a way of knowing. Jonathon Rothman mentioned that although we have different languages spoken on earth the barrier for communication is not hindered because we have different ways of translating for example Rosetta Stone. On the other hand due to there being no bases of translation for the human language and extraterrestrial language, how then would messages between the two be exchanged and not misunderstood? Although there are different ways of knowing they are most effectively portrayed through language. For example faith, emotion and logics are ways of knowing but we display these ways of knowing through the use of language. One can see that I am faithful through documentation and speech. This is the same with displaying emotions through expressing it with speech (language). On the other hand as effective as language can be used as a way of knowing, things can also be communicated to others that do not understand through the use of body language. As much as I can use speech to portray a particular message, that message could be shown by the use of gestures and facial expressions. This is still utilizing language, body language. We are then presented with another problem with the assumption that extraterrestrial beings may attach different meanings to different body languages that humans may use to portray a specific message. This makes it nearly impossible to communicate by the use of any form of language. If another way of knowing was to be used such as logics in the area of knowledge mathematics (the post mentioned the use of math) the problem is, would the message we are trying to bring across come off as detailed as we want it to? Does it even matter about the details or is it the basic message that we want to bring across? If it is the basic message that we are trying to portray then of course different ways of knowing such as logics can be used. But even the use of numbers may not be universal in the language of extra terrestrial beings. I think that ways of knowing such as faith and emotion in particular require the use of language to be effectively portrayed. As a matter of fact all ways of knowing would require the use of language in some way or form to be displayed whether it be speech, documentation or body language. I think it would be very challenging to choose a way of knowing to communicate with such beings. It is not impossible but the effectiveness of the messages being brought across would be at a minimum. Therefor I do agree with Rothman's claim about language as a vital way of communication and knowing.
Language as a way of knowing, simply put, is complex. Vakoch is confident in saying that extraterrestrial language could be entirely different. I agree with this, seeing that on Earth alone, there are many things that could classify as language. A basic outlook of language is how one communicates with others. Communication could take place through spoken language (of which there are hundreds), written language, art, music, dance, math, or science, to name a few. On other planets, there may be a language that humans have not even dreamt of yet, one that is so foreign that it cannot be imagined. With that issue present, there may be no hope for communication with extraterrestrials, as their communication may not even come across as a way of communication for us. Extraterrestrials may be trying to communicate with humans right now, but we may not even register that there is an attempt at communication.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this article, communication through emotion came to my mind multiple times. To me, it seems easier to communicate with body language and feeling than to communicate with a spoken or written language. Language leads to many errors of communication, as words can be used in the wrong way. Communication through emotion cannot be mistaken, it is one of the only things that every human knows to be true. Emotions can hardly be faked or invalid, as they are our response to our environment around us. If communicating with extraterrestrials could be done through emotion as a language, this would be a beneficial starting point. Basic relationships could form and we could advance from them. The reason to my confidence in emotion as a language is because of my knowledge of relationships with animals. Animals do not share either a written or spoken language with humans, yet many can connect with animals, knowing their emotions and feelings, consequently knowing what the animal knows. Many people who spend time around animals frequently claim to know what their animal is thinking, myself being one of those people. A personal example of this is my relationships with horses. Without a mutual language that is spoken or written, I am still able to communicate through emotion and action to harmonize and fluidly work with horses. This train of thought could only apply to extraterrestrials with emotions like ours, or emotions at all, which is an unknown at the moment. Without this basic level of communication, language cannot be synced and mutually shared. Leading me to the conclusion that there may be no way to communicate with extraterrestrials so unlike us.
Language through mathematics and science may seem to be another option. The potential for these two ways of knowing to match those of extraterrestrials would seem to be a sure way of a mutual language. Again, this is hard to know due to the unknown environment of extraterrestrials. In order to be able to know what another is trying to convey, there must be some shared characteristic of knowledge or knowing on which to grow from. Without that everything is foreign, and nothing may be perceived in the same way varying from group to group. This concept of shared knowledge could be applied to any way of communication (ie written, art, music…)
"But there will be no Rosetta Stone for our communication with extraterrestrials, and the distances involved make conversation unlikely—which may mean that our comprehension of their message will be confined to math and numbers..."
ReplyDeleteThis was the most interesting statement made about language as a way of knowing, in my opinion. I take this statement as, the only way to communicate with extraterrestrials may be through the language of mathematics. I have to completely agree with this statement. As once quoted in the 90s blockbuster Mean Girls, “It’s the same everywhere you go.” Although cheesy and a little overrated, Lindsey Lohan was right. There is not one country, city, state, region, province, or island that does not agree on mathematics. Of course there are limitations due to the difference between metric and customary and which base units are being used. However, when constants are used, mathematics can be spoken between any two people in the world, this cannot be said about any other area of knowledge or way of knowing.
Other areas of knowledge leave too much room for interpretation and opinion whether that is emotions or sense perception. Others just cannot be understood unless taught, like language. This is why I agree with Rothman’s statement. If a French man does not know Vietnamese he can still have a conversation through numbers with a Vietnamese man. This can be just as true for extraterrestrials. However, this brings up the question of whether or not you can have a legitimate conversation through numbers. Sure you can discuss things that involve numbers, but how do you answer questions that require descriptive words? How would one describe their sock only using numbers? These are the limitations to the language of mathematics as a way of knowing. But where else can you start? This is the only plausible first step in discovering a common language between human and extraterrestrial. Because of this, I strongly agree that mathematics is certainly a language as a way of knowing. It is a language shared around the world. It is the only language shared around the world.
One of the most interesting things I find after reading the blog is that almost every human being thinks that the E.Ts are mentally and physically stronger than us. We assume that they have advanced technology to accept the message we sent by antenna. We naturally use our languages to try to communicate with them. I don't believe that language is the best way of knowing to communicate with such mysterious beings.
ReplyDeleteSending information in any form of language including Maths, we make so many assumptions about the extraterrestrials. They might be creatures like insects that there is no way for them to even receive the messages we sent. There are so many possibilities about how the extraterrestrials are like. As Joshua Rothman mentions, there is no way for us to guess how extraterrestrials are like. Therefore, the conventional tools such as language we used to contact with them are definitely not the best choice.
I believe that a tangible thing can be a better way of communication with such unknown beings. I have heard that some scientists have sent some sort of objects to the universe, which will keep traveling forward until someone in the universe catch it. I believe this is a much more feasible way for those extraterrestrials to investigate the information which those things are showing. This process used perception as a way of knowing. The most basic way people can use to get information is through their perception. When the extraterrestrials see the object and touch the things we sent,they got the most direct sensation about earth. If the beings that receive them are smart enough or about the same intelligence level as human beings, they would soon find out that there is life from another planet trying to communicate with them. If there are some kinds of map showing the location of earth is included, this further increases the chance of us getting in touch with them. By sending these kind of tangible objects instead of intangible signals, the extraterrestrials would avoid the tiring process of decipher these signals because they might also meet the same problem as us that it can be too hard to decipher the received code. Although language can deliver the most accurate and complicated message, it is not the best way to use to contact with extra terrestrials.
ReplyDeleteIn Rothman’s blog, the most apparent argument is that language is such a vague and immense idea that encompases both verbal and written words, musical notes, numbers, movements, etc. As we know, it is also a major way of knowing in the world and is an important messenger of information shared through different locations, generations, cultures amongst many others. It was made clear in this blog post that language is vital for communication, however this idea of languages is something that is too broad to be able to decode. On Earth alone, Rothman made it clear that it takes people of many different and technical professions to be able to understand languages that our society is not able to understand, “Archaeologists struggled to decipher ancient Greek; deciphering a transmission from another world will be even more difficult. Even if we do manage to detect a signal, they write, fully understanding what it means may be impossible.” This is a claim from Rothman’s blog that I strongly agree with. Our society, despite the many intellectuals and tremendous amounts of research is not advanced enough to understand and decode languages of our ancestors, so, how is it possible that this same society who lacks knowledge about their own past languages can decipher the language(s) of a society that we can’t even picture? With very little information to work with, trying to identify more about these extraterrestrials and find ways to communicate with them requires, in my opinion, more knowledge about the population and it’s environment. It is necessary to understand these civilizations before trying to communicate with them, because it is far too complex and nearly impossible to try to decipher a new language or create one that will allow us to communicate with these disparate beings.
Another thought that came to mind when reading this blog post is that it is necessary to keep in mind that these extraterrestrials may be nothing similar to what humans can or have imagined. While math, and the arts (music, dance, visual arts) are thought to be universal languages because of the transposability of numbers, notes, and movements throughout different cultures and countries who may not be able to communicate via spoken or written words, I think it is completely different in the case of communicating with extraterrestrials. Extraterrestrials may or may not be similar to people we are familiar with, which makes it necessary to keep in mind that even using these forms of “universal” languages that works around Earth may still not work when trying to communicate with these unknown beings.
I think that Rothman is trying to show how language can be expressed in different forms such as words or mathematics or symbols. The more ways of communicating that humans have the simpler or more complicated reaching another civilization will be (words can be ambiguous). Rothman tries to show the reader that reaching an extra-terrestrial being takes a lot of thinking because it is true, what are we trying to prove or show these other beings, what are our motives, etc.? There are a lot of questions that go into successfully trying to reach there beings. Then again there is the possibility of math, but it is true what Rothman is saying when he says how do we communicate about our world through numbers without having letter behind them to back them up, or without knowing if the other beings have an alphabet of number or letter to reference to. Then there's the problem of our alphabet and theirs, if they even have one. Our forms of communication may be totally different from theirs. The otherworldly beings may communicate through telepathy of even a FEED, where they don't ever have to write anything down. In saying this I fully agree with Rothman's point of view on how difficult it is to reach beings that we know nothing about. However, I do not agree with his attitude on the matter (maybe I am getting it wrong but…) it looks as if Rothman has written the whole idea of ever reaching extraterrestrial off because of the fact that humans can not effectively communicate with these beings. Even if it is not possible to gain communication with these otherworldly being in the next century maybe the people after will. The whole idea is process since humans are only at the initial stages of communication.
ReplyDeleteTo determine a more effective way of knowing would require humans to know how the space beings communicated with their own civilization. Memory could work for a civilization that communicates through telepathy, language could work for beings who speak, write and read, while sense perception could work for beings who communicate through the senses.
After reading Joshua Rothman’s blog, I was so shocked to hear that astronomers and other scientists want to establish a familiar means of communication between man and extra terrestrials. I agree with Ludwig Wittgenstein’s perspective that it seems impossible to establish a common language between man and extraterrestrials. How can it be possible for man to establish a means of communication with complicated extraterrestrials if he already cannot communicate and understand well other earthly terrestrials? As Vakoch said, we are not sure about how to start communicating with the aliens because we do not know the language they use, whether it is mathematics, English, or any other language. This makes the whole process more complicated. Language is the hardest way man can use to communicate to these extraterrestrials about his thoughts and feelings.
ReplyDeleteOne of our earlier posts asked, “does knowledge, including culture, depend on language?”, and I remember answering that language depends on culture to some extent. Relating to this, I personally think that if we need to use language as a way of communicating to these extraterrestrials, we have to first explore their culture, and know better their environment. It would again be hard for us to discover the culture of these strange creatures living on another planet, but it would be better if we first understood it because we would then be able to establish a better language or means of communicating to them. In general, this would help us to approach these extraterrestrials better and it would as well answer Vakoch’s question about what these creatures would want to communicate with us.
I believe that language would not be the most efficient way we can use to communicate with these extraterrestrials. This is because the language that we use might not be universal and thus not understood by these extraterrestrials. There is a possibility that mathematical signs or symbols appear differently in this universe or that they may as well be not universal. Therefore, I think that the easier method to use in conveying our messages to these extraterrestrials would be sending them pictures or other visuals. If we find a way of sending our pictures or other visuals in which we can be seen while portraying our message which would easily help these extraterrestrials to understand our message. By seeing us, these extraterrestrials would be able to understand our message and learn more about us. Sending a clue of what we look like and represent, would help these strange creatures to interpret directly what we are trying to convey because they would not have to figure out languages being used or mathematical calculations, and signs. Sending them our pictures would also be a better idea. This is because if they received our signals, they might probably be trying to imagine what we look like.
Language is a really good way of conveying a message but since it depends on other things like culture, it is sometimes not an efficient way of communicating especially when one does not know the culture of the creature to which he/she is communicating to. In this case, language would not be the best idea that we would use to communicate with extraterrestrials. A good way of communicating with an extraterrestrial would be to use real direct visuals rather than imagined symbols that may probably not be universal. In my perspective, real visuals would be a more effective way to communicate with these extraterrestrials because by looking at them, they would directly understand the message we are trying to deliver. Visuals would not require a lot of unknown information about the extraterrestrials such as the culture which is required by language. The interpretation of visuals would require application of reasoning and emotion which I believe is always personal. The same applies to us, I believe that if those extraterrestrials respond to our messages by sending as their visuals, everybody would easily be able to interpret it by using our personal emotions and reasoning.
My understanding of this entry is that Rothman wants to convey the complexity that surrounds language, and how that complexity takes many different forms on this earth alone. The miscommunications that occur on this earth are resolved by a universal program like Rosetta Stone, but what happens if there is no universal program in the other universe? This is the idea that I believe Rothman is wrestling with, and therefore how valuable is language as a way of knowing if the other creatures we are attempting to communicate with have absolutely no understanding of what we are trying to say? Language on this earth is an incredible way of knowing, for we can portray our thoughts and feelings in a way that most in our area will understand. If our language is not shared, there are ways to aid the communication, like rosetta stone.. However, the fault that language has is that when it is used outside of our earth (or even species), it needs supplements. Rothman states “ distances involved make conversation unlikely—which may mean that our comprehension of their message will be confined to math and numbers, never able to make the jump to broader concepts or less abstract words. (How do you describe a lake, or a tree, with math?)” Therefor language will need some kind of motion, picture, or emotion to supplement it to make the message clear. Words on a page will seem like scribbles to someone if it is not supplemented with a facial expression, body movement, or picture. There must be some connection that extra terrestrials can make between our language and their world. Without this, there will be no start to understanding. Humans have done this with animals for a long time. I mean, come on, when you look at your puppy and play with it, you’re not using a monotone voice, or the voice you use to talk to your boss. Youre using a playful, and happy voice, something that can portray that you are pleased. Therefor, you’ve used language to convey what you want by talking to your dog, but you’ve also used tone of voice to portray that you are happy. Honestly the dog has no idea what’s going on, but it can understand that you’re happy by the pitch of your voice. The dog can’t talk back, but it wags it’s tail. Body movements have supplemented it’s language, and therefor you two have reached an understanding - both of you using your own language, but with supplements. Overall, language is fantastic, and brilliant, but we have no idea how what kind of thoughts these extraterrestrials are having, or if they’re even as complex as we are. What if we show up and theres just a bunch of T-Rex’s running around with their stubby little arms. Language will need a supplement.
ReplyDeleteAlso another solution is to just not find these guys and wait for them to find us because again, what if we show up and it’s a bunch of dinosaurs because the planet is still in it’s dinosaur phase and we all die. #Consequences.
In his article, Rothman implies that language is not a universal way of knowing. The universal language here on earth is math, and math has as much to do with reason as it does with language. I agree with Rothman's idea that language could be a rather narrow way of knowing that changes depending on cultural and geographic differences. For example, the languages of most of Western Europe have similarities with Latin. Culturally, that is because of Roman Empire that spanned most of Europe, and geographically, because they are close together, so naturally, languages would influence each other. On the other hand, in Asia, language takes a more symbolic form, unlike that of Europe. Neighboring languages also share similar grammar or similar words. On earth, we can see how different language in different parts of the world is, but because these languages and their speakers exist on this earth, they are bound to have things in common, and that's what made Human global communication possible. We also have to take into consideration of all the species on earth that humans cannot communicate with. Extra-terrestrials are no doubt a different species than humans, and are very "geographically" disparate from us. We can not guarantee that we have anything in common with extraterrestrials except that we are all tiny specks in the universe. Other than that, I can't think of anything else they are guaranteed to have in common with humans. Therefore, their perspective of the universe will be very different from our's too. With all that in mind, I agree with Rothman that conversation/communication with extra-terrestrials is indeed close to impossible. There are too many things that we do not know about them, so we don't know how they think, how they see, how they hear. I remember that NASA once sent a gold disk into space with hopes of extra terrestrials finding it and accessing the information in it. The disk contained sounds of earth, and recordings of speeches by world leaders. That could be a way to communicate, but that would be assuming that E.T's have the same sensory perceptions as we do. Which is something else that we do not know.
ReplyDeleteIn Ludwig Wittgenstein's famous and opaque quote, if we replace "lion" with "extra terrestrial", his words will change to "if an extra-terrestrial could speak, we might not hear "it"(they might have different names for the genders) ". Our sensory perceptions may not be able to detect E.Ts.
In his article Joshua Rothman introduces his readers to the complexity of language; specifically, communication. In my mind there are a variety of ways to communicate: through the body, through speech, and through visual aid. In the his article, The Man Who Speaks For Earth, Rothman discusses the idea of communicating with extraterrestrials and the scientific process behind this complicated project. First of all I would like to acknowledge how awesomely cool this whole idea was. I was utterly clueless that this was a project that was in the works and I am now extremely fascinated with the idea. I feel as though this article claims that language, in its complexity is not universal. However, it suggests that math may be a universally understood concept. My immediate question in response to the article was: Although math is understood here on earth, whose to say it would be in the ‘beyond’. On the fence, the claims made in this article have much room for interpretation, hindering me from getting a full-on grip of where I stand. When I think about language I immediately think about speech. However, as I mentioned before, there are many other forms of communication that are understood and used worldwide. For example, communicating emotions through sound and facial expressions, just to give an example. When interviewed, Douglas Vakoch explains the process of creating messages to the ‘beyond’ (sorry I keep calling it that but I want to add a dramatic affect). Vakoch suggests that math may be a form of communication that can be understood by extraterrestrials. I agree with this theory concerning math. However, agreeing with Jordyn, I have to say that it is nearly impossible to find a common language that would be understood by both humans and extraterrestrials. I also found it hard to compare and contrast language and math. Is math a form of language? Because if it is, then wouldn’t other forms of language that humans have adapted be universally understood. It seems as though we are dealing with a figment of our imagination. Thus, how are we supposed to narrow down a simple solution? Therefore, math, although it would be a start, it would not be the finished product. How are we to know that ‘they’ would understand our math. As humans we have adapted and interpreted the study of math and have developed it over the years of our history. To be specific, math, our math today, is a human interpretation of something far beyond our imagination. I wonder whether extraterrestrials have a different form of math. Or whether or not they even have math. This relates back to my point of how humans have a very vague understanding of extraterrestrials in general. So, what would be a solution? Like many of my classmates I have to agree and say that one single solution is impossible. I think that this is a long process, which will continue for many generations of focused, determined, and passionate learners willing to push the boundaries of science and faith. Starting with math is a solution and will, at least in my mind; develop into a long lasting process. I think that eventually, a new form of communication will be developed that could be mutually understood by both humans and extraterrestrials. As humans we already know that failure is inevitable. Language has evolved, and will continue to evolve throughout time. Perhaps this is the first step, to the long awaiting history of communicating with aliens.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone else think about E.T? I could not stop saying “E.T phone home”
According to the post Joshua Rothman's new blog, language can be both a barrier between different groups of people and means of communication.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of this controversial idea of communicating with extraterrestrials, language is seen as a very complicated way of knowing. Many astronomers and archeologists believe that it would be impossible to fully understand what was being said by any extraterrestrials. Furthermore, even detecting a signal is challenging in itself.There also questions of if our comprehension of extraterrestrial language will only be confined to math. Math is the most universal form of language, so it is the most probable means of communication that we could have with them. However how usable is mathematics as a language when it comes descriptions of places and people? Also we do not know how fast or message should be or if one thousand years, which is the probable time scale of a reply, if humans are going to understand.
The implications of this are that it is going to be very difficult to come up with a common ground between humans and extraterrestrials. We do not know a lot about who they could be and therefore we are unprepared for what we could be dealing with. We also don’t want to send anything that could be miscommunicated as a threat. This shows how complicated language is; if we find a common language, like math for example, then we can develop our communications with extraterrestrials. However, there is also a possibility that our forms of language will be far too different to ever be able understand one another.
I agree that this plan for connecting with extraterrestrials is very sort of vague in a way. We have no idea what could be out there listening to our messages and if we do exchange messages with another life form it is going to take many years to decipher them. This is going to be a challenge like the astronomers and archeologists stated, however I don’t think that the challenge of it is a reason to not try. If we don’t try, we will never know what is outside of our world.
In the post it was also mentioned that we could attempt to use pictures or icons as a sign to the extraterrestrials. I think this is a possible way of using language that can also be connected to the use of sense perception as a way of knowing to communicate. If they have seen or experienced the different signs, then that is common ground between us. Also, logic was already mentioned, but if we were to focus on math it is definitely possible that they could understand maybe not our equations, but the outcome of them.
The claims about language as a way of knowing, proposed by Joshua Rothman are relatively true. While language seems quite simple to translate and communicate this is not always the case. In the case of an extra-terrestrial being things would be much more complicated than we expect because such being would not have any previous contact with humans or earthly beings. The way of life would be completely different and so would perspectives. Since the interpretation of language and knowledge are largely dependent on culture and perspective communication in any language form would be highly complicated. There is even the possibility that there is absolutely no common ground or literal understanding of communication occurs.
ReplyDeleteThe implications of this would mean that while language seems like a very effective way of communication, this would be an instance where it would be extremely difficult or not possible at all. It is already complicated enough that there are around 7 billion people on earth speaking hundreds of languages. Bearing this in mind it would be fairly complicated for one person or a small group of persons to convey a message for the entire planet. While humans may not have a common set of words they would like to convey there are things we all bear in common. We all carry out similar biological processes and all have emotions and feelings. Thus, assuming that the extra terrestrial beings have similar life processes perception or emotions may be a more effective way of knowing. It might even be possible that none of these things are true and there is no possible way of communicating with them that they will understand. It is the physiology and culture of the species on earth that allows us to communicate with each other. Thus, unless we understand the physiology and culture of the foreign beings we cannot know how to communicate with them.